The Pickle Jar

The pickle jar effect is, and I can't remember where I heard it.
If anybody knows kind of who came up with this concept, please let us know.
It's a Danielism as far as I'm concerned.
I really, I wish it was.
It's definitely a concept beyond me and out there in the universe.
Well, yay.
Glad that's what I brought to the party.
So somebody will have been at the company trying to open a jar.
There's something in the jar that you will need and you're trying to open it.
They've banged it on the side.
They've run it under hot water.
They've used a tea towel, all of this.
And you're the new guy.
You're walking in and you're like, oh, the jar needs opening.
Give it here.
I'll take it.
I'll be able to open it.
So the person who's giving up the jar then is quite resentful because what are you going
to try that I haven't already tried?
Hi, I'm Karl.
And I'm Danielle.
And this is Productly Speaking.
We're product managers by trade.
And here we explore the world of product management.
It's people and their stories.
We promise to keep it entertaining.
And maybe you'll learn something.
Shall we give this a go?
Let's do it.
Hi, welcome to episode two.
Today, we're going to be talking about why we've actually made this Productly Speaking
podcast, the different stages of the product lifecycle and why different skills are required
at each point, the difficulties in bringing product into a new organization that is engineering
led, which is really, truly quite challenging.
And then conversely, on the complete opposite end of the spectrum, being a product manager
at seven levels down from the top and still, how are you going to make an impact?
So, Danielle, did you want to kick us off and start talking about why we're making this
podcast?
Yeah, I think one of the things that as a product manager, we really have to nail, especially
in your first couple of years in practice, is just taking all of the opportunities that
you have and kind of running with them.
And this is one of those opportunities for both Karl and I.
We talked ourselves into a podcast and thought, why not?
Like, let's just try it out.
Let's do it and take the opportunity and make the most of it, run an experiment, which is
why we've called season zero the MVP.
We're just testing the waters and seeing what it's like.
And we enjoy talking about product management.
So that's always a good use of time.
What do you think, Karl?
Because we are product managers, we had to do an MVP.
I mean, you can't launch without doing an MVP.
This is just the way it works.
But further to your point, I mean, we do believe that we have some unique perspectives on product
management due to our very backgrounds.
I mean, we've both worked at large enterprise-sized companies that service thousands of users in
the Fortune 50, the Fortune 100, et cetera.
And we've also worked at startups.
And so we've got that knowledge of being able to only have a handful of customers that you're
trying to service and getting really close to what they need and then trying to see where
the market's going.
And we also understand that we are not the smartest people in the room, and we don't
know it all.
And anyone who believes they are the smartest person in the room, well, I bet I can find
a smarter person.
So that's how that works.
And I think to have that level of understanding of the situation there, that gives us very unique
perspectives to drive this from.
Yeah, that's really true.
I think our unique perspectives are what ensure we talk through things in a really deep manner.
It's something that I try and protect against in the teams is the concept of groupthink.
If you're always agreeing with each other, sometimes it feels really great because you
can run so fast because you're always agreeing with each other and you can get on and do.
But it really does make me wonder if there's something we're missing.
So with the two of us, I think it's really great that we challenge each other and we have
these different experiences.
While we agree on so many things and we have similar values and approaches to product management,
we also have the ability to challenge each other.
Our experiences have led us to different understandings.
And I think that's really valuable to move teams away from groupthink.
It means that together we're stronger, which is really great.
Yeah, and also, you know, to that point, we do really enjoy talking about product management
and are hoping to meet others who enjoy talking about it as well.
We're deeply curious and want to share those stories, find people with unique perspectives.
That's what we're going to do in the next season after we finish up our MVP.
So we're excited to learn from those who have other unique perspectives to our own.
And if you're interested in coming on the show, we'd love to hear from you.
And you can send us an email at hello at productlyspeaking.com.
And we'd love to have a chat.
So now that we've kind of talked about why we're doing it, we've definitely talked about
wanting to get into this whole conversation around the different stages of the product
lifecycle and why different skills are required at each point.
So just really quickly, what are we talking about with the different stages of product
lifecycle?
Well, you've got kind of an early stage of product that spans anywhere from ideation to a
minimal marketable product or an MVP as we're doing here, minimal viable product.
The middle stage spans early releases to mature products.
And a late stage product is one that's anywhere from late maturity to end of life.
And having been really kind of on all of these spectrums, I can tell you that the challenges
for each of these different stages are very different.
And it does take a different set of skills to handle each one of these different areas.
And it's one of those things that not everybody has the skills to do all three.
And certainly, if you do have the skills to do all three, you are going to be stronger
in some areas than the others.
So everybody's going to have like a lane that's a little bit more natural in this product lifecycle.
Either you're really good at the early stages, you're really good at the middle stages,
or you're really good at the late stages.
And understanding that's really important from just a career perspective for yourself.
But also, as somebody who would lead product, you need to be able to see these things and
the people that you have working on your different products, and to be able to position people
with the correct roles.
Yeah, I think having that self-awareness to know where you prefer to spend your time,
it's so natural for you to put off and procrastinate on things that don't bring you joy.
So if you have the self-awareness to know, actually, I really love this stage.
And then just try and spend your time there, try and focus your efforts there,
and then know to delegate the things that you're not stronger at.
You can delegate and learn and grow your weaknesses into strengths,
but also just recognizing where you get fulfillment means that you're probably going to want to
focus on those areas too.
And to talk about it a little bit more, I mean, those early stage qualities,
you've got to really be very driven, but also have that ability to turn an idea into reality,
be really willing to experiment with things, and be willing to be proven wrong.
Because that's the beauty of an early stage product is you're going to learn how many
different ways you're wrong. That's the whole point. You think you're right,
you're going to go forward like you're right, you're going to mark it like you're right,
and then the mark is going to turn around and tell you, nope, nope, nope, and nope.
And then you're going to have to address and change course.
So you don't want to develop too much too fast either, because you do want to do that experimentation.
You want to have something that you don't mind throwing away.
You don't want to get too married to the product, so to say, at that early stage.
You want to be able to have that mindset that, okay, we're building this and we may have to
completely redo it, but we think we're onto something here.
And then when you get past that point, you know, you get into a product that you've actually got
a good user base on. You really do get into the middle stage of the product life and that
customer understanding, doing things like competitive analysis, being driven by outcomes,
working with teams to get things done, working with people who work with customers,
understanding a balance between new features and existing customers becomes important.
Because at this point, you've got a product that's got some traction and you're starting
to actually run. And when you start to actually run, now you actually have real customers to take
care of, to support, to make sure that they continue to be happy with the product while you continue
to still try and attract new customers into the product. And sometimes you may have to make
decisions that put those at odds.
Yeah. It's the, um, I was looking yesterday, there's a Ted talk called the Super Mario effect,
talking about how it's so normal when you're playing Super Mario to play a level and to like
run, run, jump, jump off, falling down a hole and you restart the level again. And I think your
ability to keep doing that and like essentially running into a brick wall until you've figured out
how to smash through the brick wall is such a, to me, it feels like a very early life cycle
skill, but you do need it at every step because whether it's, you know, the, the brick wall could
be the fact that you're not getting traction with the customers, but the brick wall could also be
internal issues, right? Like you're coming up against people who don't understand product
management, or you're coming up against people who have different ideas or different
methodologies. Um, and so you really just do need to have that mindset of try it doesn't work,
start again, but just in slightly different versions of that each stage of the life cycle.
Yeah. That's a, that's a great, um, analogy because yeah, in Super Mario, you just, you are
constantly dying and restarting and dying and restarting. And, and that's actually part of
the fun of it. Uh, which is exactly people love that. Yeah, right. You have to find the joy in it.
People love playing Super Mario. So what is it that about Super Mario that makes you want to keep
going and harness that and use it? Um, it is easy to get stuck in that trap though,
as a product manager where you're like, I really like what we did that then when you find that
feedback that it wasn't the right thing, that can be tough. That that's a, that's a trap to fall into.
Yeah, totally. And the, I mean, that's a, it's a bias, right? And there's so many different types of
bias. The one that I see folks fall into a lot is confirmation bias, but also survivor bias.
Um, we could do a whole podcast episode on just, on just those two, but survivor bias being the,
the customers that you have are the customers that you build for, which is great because the
customers that you have continue to be happy, but what are you missing? Because they're the ones also
surviving on your product. So what are you not seeing that's out in the market that you need to go and
figure out how to plug that gap or get new customers. And then confirmation bias is just
believing that you're right. And therefore all of the data that comes in, you find a way of reading
it so that it supports your, um, your idea or your, your hypotheses. Um, I think both are there
for a reason. Like it's good to have confirmation bias sometimes, but you do just have to have that
self-awareness to say, okay, is, is this data set actually proving me right? Or do I just want it to
prove me right? Yeah, those are great topics and, uh, not to spoil things, but if you keep listening
to our podcast in the next episode, we're not going to talk about all of the things that Danielle
just mentioned, but we are going to continue that conversation, uh, with regards to product
market fit, because this all kind of comes together because you've got to know, do you have product
market fit? Are you making the right choices to get yourself there? And how do you know when you're
there? So we'll talk about that in the next one, but it's an absolutely very valid point.
And then just to kind of move through what qualities are needed for the different stages
in product management, you get into the late stage qualities and now you're really at a point where
you're just managing customer relationships. Uh, you've got a product that is hip maturity and
you've got a lot of different people that already love it. And when you get to this point, you know,
we talked about how before you have to kind of manage the Delta between what are your existing
customers want and what are your prospects need. Now you're at a point where your existing customer
base is so large that to change anything, to add anything could cause a trauma for your existing
customer base. And so you've got to be extremely careful with what you do there. Uh, making massive
changes could cause lots of headaches for your, your end users. And it could, and conversely, it
calls headaches for you and the organization. Uh, so you've really, really got to think this one
through and it becomes extremely difficult to add or to change things and products in this stage.
And you may have to do what's actually very hard and that's to plan for end of life, plan to sunset
your product. You know, you've worked on this product for a while, you love the product and now
it's not the right product for the market or it's time for it to be done. And you may have to actually
plan that. And you may have to go all the way back to the early stage and start innovating for a
product replacement. So maybe it's like, okay, well, we've done this for so many years and it
was great, but it's clear that the need in the market has changed. This is no longer going to
do what we need. How do we now innovate something new in that market? That's going to allow us to
replace this. So when you get into the late stage of the game, it becomes very different. Um, it's a,
it's a much different challenge at that point. Yeah, definitely.
Yeah. I think your, um, your first point of, okay, you've got a whole bunch of customers that
love it, but now you're scaling or you're growing. Um, and you need to kind of double down on that
somehow is such a dangerous at fun, dangerous, but such a dangerous place to be because the people
who got you where you are, aren't necessarily the same people who get your, where you're going,
but you have to watch out for influences or original influences, not becoming the reason
that you're stagnating in the product. And so I think that's a really special part of kind of that
later stage when it comes to sunsetting stuff. That's such an emotional, such an emotional place
to be because you've got customers who love your product, right? They're there, they were using it
and there wouldn't be a reason for them to use it if they didn't need it. So how do you kind of turn
it off and take it away from them? Um, I think that communication piece is so key. Again, communication
is, is a key tenant in my mind of product management and being able to communicate through layers and
through teams and different interfaces with customers, all of this, but that sunsetting stage,
you really have to, to nail the communication and just make sure that folks know what's coming and
why we've all been on the receiving end of a product that's changing its strategy or it's
turning off or it's changing its pricing model. I know that we've, we've all been through a pricing
model change and that is almost sunsetting one product and leaning to another, um, or it can feel
like it from the end user point of view. So having that, that empathy and those communication touch
points are really special. Yeah. Great, great example of that is when Adobe changed, uh, basically all of
their creative tools from individual commercial off the shelf products, you know, you buy it for
say $300, $500. And I think some of it went up to 800, a thousand, but you get the thing for
however long the life of the product is. And even after the life of the product, if your computer
still is running, well, then the product keeps running. And though you don't get updates,
you can still keep using the tool that you use for so long. And they turned that into the
subscription model. And that caused a lot of consternation within the community because like
you said, it's basically sunsetting one type of product and bringing in another one. So, you know,
everybody's used to the, okay, I might buy Adobe's creative platform, but I'm only going to do it
every five years because it's so expensive. But for five years, you know, I'm going to have this one
price that I pay and then I'm going to get all this value from it. And now all of a sudden I'm having
to pay by the month and that changes the game because when you have to see that bill every
month and you know, if you stop paying that bill, you stop getting the value. It's just a very
different end user experience. And it caused a lot of concern. A lot of people got really upset about
that. At the end of the day, I think they did a reasonably good job with managing and messaging that
because most people have moved onto the creative cloud platform that they have. And I don't think
that they've necessarily done bad for themselves or lost a business for making this move, but it
was definitely, there was a period of time where there was a lot of angst towards Adobe for the
change. And it definitely took Adobe and the customers a lot of time working through that to
get to a point where creative cloud is the accepted default. And I say accepted because I don't think
that everybody loves the subscription model for creative cloud, but they've come to terms with this is
how this is now sold. Yeah. And being like internally knowing that you're making the right strategic
choice for the business, but having all of that external pushback from customers must be really
demotivating for the team. So hanging on to this strategically is the right choice. We have the data, we have
the understanding, we know we have to do this and keep going, even though you're getting all of that
negative feedback. Yep. And that kind of brings us into this other point that we wanted to talk about
today. And that's that making an impact actually requires having good self-awareness and knowing
where you can be the most influential to have impact. Because as, as you've, you and I have
talked about before, you know, it's, it's very rare that a product manager has somebody reporting to
them unless you're like in the leadership of product. And so therefore you have product managers
reporting to you. So you have to lead by influence. You don't actually have the authority to make things
happen within the company. And just knowing who your points of influence are as stakeholders and
how much influence they have on their teams so that you can bring people along for the journey
is, is really critical there. I think, I think it's, I think it's right as well. I've spent a lot of time
talking about this in, in other environments, but I think it's right that you don't have engineers and
designers reporting into product managers in the same way that I think it's inappropriate for product
managers to report into designers or into engineers, because it's important for those three tracks of
the triad to not have bias. Like we each have a natural tension with each other. Engineers are
going to want the best engineered solution. Designers are going to want the best thing for
the user experience and product managers are going to need to balance the two of those
plus the business needs. Um, and so if you have a product manager reporting into a designer,
then suddenly your product manager is motivated to make decisions that benefit the design,
um, or vice versa. You have product reporting to engineering and you've got product managers
making engineering biased decisions. And so keeping everybody in their tracks is critical to stay out
of some of those, those traps that folks can fall into, but it does mean that you then have to lean on
influence and relationship building in order to make sure that the team is working effectively,
efficiently to time and everybody's got what they need, um, rather than relying on those formal
reporting structures. Yeah. So that's, that's an excellent point that you've made. And it really speaks
to some of the problems that you can run into with product management in an established organization.
Uh, but you and I have also had experiences basically coming into an organization without product
management before. So what are some of those difficulties, Danielle, in bringing product into a new
organization that is engineering led and doesn't have a product mindset? Yeah, I think product
management feels like it's been around for a really long time. Project management certainly has,
and it's such a subtle difference and yet an important one that when you're the first product
manager in a space, or maybe one of the first product managers in a space, ensuring that folks
understand what it is that you actually do, which can be really difficult because every time,
I feel like every time I read a different product manager job description or product owner job
description, they're all subtly different. They're all wanting slightly different levels of design
experience, slightly different levels of delivery experience. Um, and just knowing that the job
description you read reflects the company culture and acceptance of product, and then will define how
much effort you have to put into being that human advocates for product and advocates for the things
that we do when we enter a company. Um, yeah, it's almost like you have to go on a bit of a roadshow and
make sure people understand who you are as an individual, but also who you are as a, as a function,
um, and making sure that those two narratives are close and related, but not the same.
Yeah. That's, that's an excellent point. Um, tell us about the pickle jar. You've got to go to the pickle jar.
I love the pickle jar. Um, yeah. And I think this applies, this doesn't just apply to when you have
the first product manager join or maybe the second or third product manager join, but whenever you join
somewhere for new, you have to take that step back and recognize you've been hired because you're
respected as the, as a subject matter expert, like that's why you're there is to, to be who you are
and you've got through the front door and that's really great. So, so use that as a, as a power,
but recognize that the team before you are also attempting to do the best job that they could and
respect that legacy. If you don't, it's going to feel like a pickle jar effect. And so the pickle
jar effect is, and I can't remember where I heard it. If anybody knows, um, kind of who came up with
this, this concept, I really, I, I wish it was, it's definitely a concept, um, beyond me and out
there in the universe. Well, okay. Glad that's what I brought to the party. Um, so somebody will have
been at the company trying to open a jar. Um, there's something in the jar that you all need and
you're trying to open it. They've banged it on the side. They've run it under hot water. They've
used a tea towel, all of this. And you're the new guy you're walking in and you're like, Oh,
the jar needs opening. Give it here. I'll take it. I'll be able to open it. So the person who's
giving up the jar then is quite resentful because what are you going to try that? I haven't already
tried. And again, there's a communication piece in there. There's an empathy piece in there.
And while you should, like you're a new pair of eyes, you're a new pair of hands. You'll have
strength that the other person doesn't have. You'll also have weaknesses that that other person
doesn't have, but just recognizing that, Hey, I see you're trying to unravel this problem. You're
trying to open this job, but you haven't managed it yet. Let me help you is a much more effective
way of team building than going in and grabbing the jar and attempting to do it on your own.
And we've seen both. I'm sure I have been the person opening somebody else's pickle jar
unsuccessfully, right? This is the other thing is the pickle jar. If it was easy to open,
they'd have done it themselves. And so sometimes you'll be able to open it, but most of the time
it needs several things combined, which means it needs several people combined.
Yeah. And it does feel pretty bad when somebody comes in and they're like, Oh, I can do that.
Just hand me the pickle jar. And then they realize that they can't. I mean,
to some degree, there's a little bit of short and Freud self-satisfaction there when they can't
open the pickle jar, but you're also just kind of like, well, but I tried everything.
Right. And you sit there and like, do you not think I'm good enough? Do you not think I'm clever
enough? Do you not respect my history that I, you know? Yeah. I already tried that. I already tried
that. What makes you think you're so different? And suddenly you're building up walls to team members
that really shouldn't be there.
Yeah. So it's very much something to be aware of because it's, uh, you should absolutely hand over
the pickle jar and say, please, please try. I'd love to see you try that. I'm going to sit back
and watch. And who knows, maybe they'll surprise you and open the pickle jar and you'll be like,
wow, well now hold on, wait a minute. Yeah. And then you realize you have a strong team member.
Yeah. Hanging onto that purpose as well. Like it's, it's our pickle jar as a team,
we all have to crack this nut together. It's not my thing that I have to do on my own. So even if
somebody else does manage it and they get the credit for it, well, that can be really frustrating,
especially if you're, you know, if you feel like you're trying to get a promotion or you're trying
to move forwards in your career, it can be frustrating to see somebody else succeed where
you tried and failed or tried and didn't, wasn't given the right opportunities, but also hanging on to
actually, why is it that I'm here? And that's the company agenda and the product agenda and moving
that forwards. And it doesn't matter who does it as long as it's done. We're a team, we should do
this together. Well, as product managers, we love to be individuals and we love to get things done
and we love to show everybody how great we are and how awesome we are. And it just is deflating to see
somebody else come in and be like, oh yeah, I can open that jar. Absolutely. And I think that comes,
it kind of takes us full circle a little bit to the, we kind of have to roadshow our abilities a
little bit. We have to be our own advocates because we're influencers. So imagine a social
media influencer who didn't tell you how good a product was or how good the thing was. You'd never
go out and buy it, which means that as product managers, we have to say, look, I'm really good at
this. I know what I'm doing. Please follow me. We're going this way. Otherwise you're going on your own
and that's not useful.
Well, imagine a company that truly marketed their product and they're like, our product is the okay-est
thing you've ever used. That would be really difficult. I mean, like you could self-deprecating
humor can work in a marketing scenario, but you've actually got to be really good. And then you've
got to be really on point with your, with your self-deprecating humor. So it's a very difficult
thing to go out there and, uh, be, be humble, frankly. Uh, also speaking of difficult things,
being a product manager, seven levels down from the top and making an impact. Oh my goodness. Uh,
I have been there before. And when you are seven levels down from the top, the things that you
manage are a very, very small portion of a larger product. And it can feel like you have very little
impact because the strategy is decided so far up above where you sit that you're not going to have
a lot of control over the strategy. And you've got such a small section of the product at that point,
when you're like seven levels down in an organization that it almost feels like you can't fill,
but at the same time you can, and there are ways to succeed. And I think that when you're in that
scenario, uh, you have to be very innovative to find what are the ways that I can make the largest
impact that might actually get me noticed at levels higher above, because now we've actually
taken this part of the product that, you know, seven levels down is probably not something everybody
cares about is the other reality of that too, that there's probably just a portion of your company
that cares about that and not the entire company. It's not the make or break for the company, but if
you can turn it into something that becomes something that people care about more than that's how you can
be successful in that scenario. And that's a very difficult thing to do. Um, it's kind of a difficult
spot to hold, uh, simply because you'd like to make more of an impact, but it's also, I think that's
not a bad spot to get maybe started in product management. That's a good place for people that
are just kind of starting to kick the tires on how all of this works and starting to really get in
there and make an impact. And I think that that's a, if you're in that type of role, that's a great
starting role. And there's a lot to be learned in that role. You probably do have a little bit more
room to mess up than if you were in a smaller organization, just trying to get something to
market and a mistake could be fatal for the product's ability to go to market. As opposed
to if you make a mistake, you may aggravate a few users, but you can walk that back. And it's, it's
not all that big at the end of it. Yeah. I think there's a, there's a line in a Star Wars movie,
episode one, where they're like underneath water and Qui-Gon Jinn is showing my nerd side,
but Qui-Gon Jinn is like, there's always a bigger fish. And I think that line has stuck with me since
that movie came out. And then through my career, there's always a bigger fish. And very rarely
are we talking to like the CPO or that one person who really is in control of everything. When you
are seven levels down, there's always going to be somebody else with a bigger product than you
or more a product that's got more traction in the market than yours does or more users than yours does.
But I think nailing the narrative so that when you're not in the room, people still know what
you're responsible for and they can still talk to your feature or talk to your product and just
replaying that narrative over and over again, making sure that for the piece of strategy that you do own,
it lives without you. It's written down. It's a, it's an elevator pitch. It's a, something that other
people can kind of hang on to and be like, Oh yeah, Karl's responsible for this. This is his
thing. It's great. I can summarize it in two, three sentences and it lives and breathes on its own.
I think can be really special. And just knowing that you're always going to have to vie for people's
attention. So what are the things like, what are the pieces of candy that can stand out?
Um, and that was, it's like an app that comes to mind when I talk about this is ways. And there
used to be literal candy on the street that as you were driving, you would drive over the candy and
it would get you points. But it was the thing that was different from Apple maps, Google maps at the
time. Like it was the, the app that just stood out just a little bit. So try and figure out if you feel
like you don't have influence or you feel like you're not getting traction internally, like what's your
candy? Like why, why are you special? What's different? And it doesn't have to be big. Um,
and it shouldn't be big. Most of the time you shouldn't be distracting the team with stuff.
That's kind of just the cherry on top narrative. I think Google bought Waze. Okay. I don't know.
We'd have to do, we'd have to check. I think it's an interesting, it's an interesting point. Um,
that kind of comes up into here as well, uh, is just that sometimes you have a great idea.
You're seven layers down and you're not going to get that traction. We've seen this before where
like somebody has that great idea and the company won't invest in that great idea. So what do they
do? They leave and they start their own thing and they make the idea. What's even funnier is then when
the company you used to work at has to buy your thing. So sometimes you're just not going to,
sometimes you're just not going to have that influence over the top and you're going to have to go out
and prove that you can do the thing on your own. So I, I, I guess, uh, on that, our call to action
to all of you out there is to think about the different stages in the product life cycle and which
one gives you the most joy or seems the most challenging. And then find a way to position
yourself as the right person for a product in that stage and make sure that you have fitted yourself
into what's best for you based on that. And if you're a product leader, take a look at your team
and think about some of these things and think about where those people fit. And do you really
have the right person on the right part of the product?
This has been Productly Speaking. Thank you for tuning in. If you like what you heard,
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you think might enjoy listening to an American and a Brit natter on about product management.
I don't think you can call it nattering. I guess actually we did stay on topic and it's not
technically nattering. Exactly. Well, what did you guys think? Leave us some feedback. Make sure to
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cheerio.